textlize pricing account
Deciding the fate of C Language
Cover

02:28:33

The Fate of C: A Pragmatic Debate Between Language Creators

Core insight: C survives due to its unmatched toolchain maturity and long-term stability, but newer languages like Odin offer cleaner abstractions for specific use cases.

The Learning Dilemma: When to Choose C?

Ryan Flurry (RAD Debugger) advises against starting with C: "Beginners should first learn Python/JavaScript. C's implicit behaviors (array decay, integer promotion) require foundational context."

Ginger Bill (Odin creator) adds: "Most C resources teach poor practices. Handmade Hero remains the gold standard for learning modern C paradigms."

Use Cases: Where C Excels and Falters

✅ Ideal for C

  • Long-term codebases (10+ years): Toolchain stability outweighs language flaws
  • Cross-platform portability: De facto compiler support across systems
  • Embedded development: Minimal runtime overhead

❌ Problematic for C

  • Rapid prototyping: Build system complexity slows iteration
  • Data-heavy applications: Lack of slices/strings increases errors
  • New codebases: Standard library gaps require reinventing fundamentals

The Standards Divide: C11 vs. C23

Key criticism: Newer standards (C17/C23) prioritize "modernization" over C's core philosophy.

Bill's stance: "C23's auto and typed enums misunderstand why people use C. We need fewer features, not more."

Ryan's view: "The spec matters less than real-world compiler behavior. Most code uses extensions anyway."

Critical Language Shortcomings

Top Pain Points

  • Build system: Textual includes create dependency chaos
  • Error handling: Return-value patterns lack consistency
  • Standard library: malloc/realloc APIs are fundamentally flawed

Ryan's macro workaround: "For default parameters, I wrap structs in variadic macros. Not ideal, but beats C++'s complexity."

Undefined Behavior: The Optimization Trap

Bill's critique: "Compilers misuse UB for 'optimizations' that break developer expectations. We need platform-specific definitions instead of blanket UB."

Ryan agrees: "The spec should reflect real-world compiler behavior. Today's UB is often tomorrow's implementation-defined nuance."

Odin's Strategic Position

Ryan's assessment: "Odin solves C's syntax pain points (pointer declarations, slices) while avoiding Rust/Zig's complexity. For new projects needing native tooling, it's the strongest contender."

Bill's long-term view: "Odin's survival no longer depends on me. Conservative feature growth ensures maintainability by the community."

Learning Resources: Beyond Textbooks

  • Handmade Hero: Demonstrates modern C patterns in real-time development
  • Quake 2 source: Exemplifies straightforward data-oriented design
  • STB libraries: Showcases practical API design (Sean Barrett)

Final verdict: C remains indispensable for legacy systems, but languages like Odin offer better ergonomics for greenfield projects where toolchain control is possible.

© 2025 textlize.com. all rights reserved. terms of services privacy policy